Allister Hi, Lara.

 

Glenn Are you for marketing?

 

Lara I think so.

 

Glenn Lara from Marketing.

 

Allister Hey, Lara.

 

Lara Hey. So I've got a few more questions. One from Fraser here. Briefly, for someone starting out in the agribusiness or farming industry, what would be your advice?

 

Allister Hearing that, I would definitely recommend the fact that you should surround yourself with trusted advisers, people who you value and trust their experience and recognise if you're starting off, you literally don't know what you don't know and you don't know everything. The worst thing you can do in our industry, I believe, is standing in front of people literally and not give the correct answers. I don't think anyone begrudges someone who doesn't know something and then goes away and finds it out. So surround yourself with trusted people and recognise that it doesn't hurt not to know everything at the start.

 

Glenn I think the other thing I would say is to take every opportunity to build your knowledge and building on Allister’s point that you don't know everything. But I think if you take every opportunity to build your knowledge that's observing things in the field, listening to people who have been in the industry a long time, I think that's pretty critical. And you should take every opportunity to do that and actually be aware of the things that you are participating in and the things that you're seeing. So I think there is no one right answer. But I think the people that I see that have succeeded have taken notice of the things that are happening around them.

 

Allister And I'll just add one more on that front as well as, say, be self aware, as a young person entering the industry, you will forge your path, you will want to be valued and recognised. But just please be aware that everyone is watching you, which means that you know behaviours again, you know how you seek support or think you can do it yourself. All these things people are watching you and it is a small industry and you know, people do pay attention to you as you emerge in your career. So it all means that like basically the process of emerging in an agricultural career is that you're in public eye, you are in amongst peers, and it's a very small network. So be self aware. People are watching. People value people that, you know, show interest to show thoughts, surround themselves with good people.

 

Lara I'm definitely relatively new to the industry here and to be quite fair just being curious and asking questions, it goes a long way. People are happy to answer. One here from Matt. Where is the strangest place that you've woken up? I like this question.

 

Glenn Allister you go first on this one.

 

Allister Well, you've done that to me quite a lot, Juddy. I woke up once on a New Year's on an outcrop somewhere north of Paihia on a Kikuyu matt with no one around me anywhere for as far as you could see. So how I got there and why I was there, I'd probably want to try not to remember, but yeah, that was random.

 

Glenn That was random. The most interesting place of woken up. I had the privilege of travelling to Antarctica and I remember waking up. We were on the sea ice, a place called Turks Head, which looked up to Mt Erebus. And I remember waking up one morning and because we were on the sea ice, there were seals that were actually swimming around underneath us, making all sorts of noise. Mating season or something going on what it was. But anyway, the waking to the sound of seals below you in Antarctica is a really special feeling. But it's so weird knowing that there's probably only a foot and a half of ice between you and the ocean. So yeah, pretty cool.

 

Lara That is really cool.

 

Glenn Very special.

 

Allister That one wins by the way.

 

Lara If you guys have any questions that are technical, serious or light-hearted or anything in between, please feel free to email us at info@agricom.co.nz or flick us a message on our Facebook or Instagram page Agricomnz.

 

Allister Thanks, Lara.

 

Glenn Thanks, Lara.

 

Glenn G'day, Alister. You're looking well. That yoga seems to be working.

 

Allister Thanks, Juddy.

 

Glenn What are we going to talk about today?

 

Allister Well, Glenn, we're going to come back to a question that was asked by Jason from the lower North Island, New Zealand in a couple of podcasts ago, where he was asking us to respond to a question around the pitfalls of uncertified or cheap seed. So this is the topic for today.

 

Glenn So thinking about uncertified seed, what is actually certified seed?

 

Allister Oh, it's a complicated question in the sense that it is an official system that enables our country to trade seed around the world and also for consumers to be confident that they are getting what they're actually paying for. It's run by the Government and the New Zealand Seed Authority. And, you know, it requires a high level of scrutiny and standards because this really impacts the trade of seed around the world, protects countries from invasive weeds and other species. So it has a very strong political government driven system to both protect the consumers, protect country's borders and protect the breeders for the integrity of their seed.

 

Glenn So if you think about, you know, as we are growing seed out there on the paddock, we do those checks and balances start from what are the actual things that happened to that seed.

 

Allister Well, for example, our arable team and this is really an area that I've got a little bit of knowledge. Therefore it's moderately dangerous. But for all species that we grow within the arable networks of New Zealand, they have a set of requirements to meet certification. Many of these require crop rotations to be monitored over the years. And so, for example, a change of variety in white clover, a paddock must not have had white clover in it for over five years and gone through multiple rotations in that time frame before you can change a variety and get it certified.

 

Glenn So that's to protect the fact that you're not getting the old variety coming through and some of that seed.

 

Allister Correct and destroy the new varieties. Or destroying the integrity of the new variety. So it starts at a lot of the compliances around crop rotation documentation and the professionalism that the arable seed industry holds. Pollination, isolation, distances. And yeah, so those things are monitored and communicated throughout that arable community.

 

Glenn Yeah. So you've got this seed that's being produced and in isolation so that you can guarantee that that's the case. I guess this also comes from stock seed that has been certified as being what they're breeding. Right.

 

Allister Yeah. And many of those seed systems could be different based on brassicas and flowers and other things. But if I pulled apart what I do in the product development side of my job is that the breeders create a nuclear seed. That seed is a tiny amount of say, maybe in the 60 to 100g that is taken through to a breeder's stage and then that becomes starts to become certified. So the breeders seed as another generation moves on to create basic seed and the basic seed is stored over years to create the seed that is released to create the first generation seed. And in the majority of systems, it's the first generation seed that the consumer purchases. But because it's gone through a formal system, the integrity of the variety has been maintained at a high level. Through the processes of becoming a certified system and within the certified system. And at first generation, even though there's been four harvests to get to that line, the integrity of that variety has stabilised and is being presented to the customer.

 

Glenn And so I guess in a long lived cultivar such as ONE50 perennial ryegrass, for example, it means that if you bought one ONE50 10 years ago and you bought ONE50 tomorrow, essentially the seed certification system allows you to be confident you are actually buying the same plant.

 

Allister One hundred percent, that's exactly what that process is there to do is to protect the stability of that variety. Remembering it's a cross-pollinated species and that, you know, if that is not maintained every year pollen flies around in the landscape. And like myself, the spring getting allergies. I'm allergic to my job. I'm allergic to grass. That is pollen. And that pollen is the genetics from other plants. And so if you're not managing that with thought, you can over time get ingression and other things and genetic drift.

 

Glenn So the system is set up to do that. What are other what are some other components of that certification system from a kind of a wider community basis? I'm thinking about biosecurity and some farm management things. What does that seed certification bring for those aspects of farming?

 

Allister Well, it requires a very, very high level of purity and germination to be realised, which basically means that there are literally no other surprises that come with your seed. Like you're getting the predominantly the variety you're doing, the levels that are acceptable for certification are so great that we're talking one seed in a million from a point of view of an outside contamination perspective. And there are certain species that if they are reported on a P&G, that the line will not ever be certified. So that's the protection phase from it not contaminating another environment. They care about what they're sowing into the pasture. So it is a predominantly system associated with making sure that the maximum standards are maintained. The minimum risk of something truly undesirable was there and again, if the seed line fails this during that process there is likely to be something that is undesirable for one farm business in New Zealand somewhere that the system is protecting from them getting this. A good example might be oat production in Southland for oat milk for example, the last thing you'd want is wild oats coming through and a seed sample from a previous rotation in your annual ryegrass, for example. So, you know, these types of things start to become meaningful for individual businesses around the world, around the country.

 

Glenn And so as part of that certification process, you know, samples of those seeds that are being drawn officially then going through labs. So there's lots of checks and balances, not only in the field, but at the lab bench, if you like, in terms of making sure that what is on the certification tag is actually what's in the bag.

 

Allister Absolutely. And the official lab at the moment, that is the primary lab run by the government that is run to the highest of standards in the world, because this is also the documentation that allows seed to travel across national boundaries. So it has to be an incredibly official system. And so really, when you come back to the original question, which is what are the pitfalls of uncertified seed and or cheap seed, we've got to remember that majority of this sits inside domestic trade. So the seed that can be exported anywhere in the world because it cannot cross boundaries or borders. The reality is then that is either disposed of or literally enters the domestic trade as what I've just described on certified seed or cheap seed.

 

Glenn So let's turn this round and now that we understand what the certification process, you know, at a high level and you know, I appreciate that it's not your day job.

 

Allister And I would actually say that's a big disclaimer associated with all that. I think it was at a high enough level that I haven't stood on anyone's feet. But the reality is that the sentiment is that structured and very, very official way that this process is run and by a huge group of amazing lab people. Assure Quality inspectors and our own arable networks in the reporting and recording of our arable farmer community. It is a big process that everyone works towards to get some pretty highly valuable seed both to our domestic customers, but also across the borders into our international markets.

 

Glenn So if you flip that around and say, well, I'm a farmer, I'm looking to try and cut some costs in my farming business, and I've been offered this uncertified line of let's just call it perennial ryegrass, for example, understanding the checks and balances that typically certified seed goes through. The question and coming back to Jason's question is, so what are the what are the pitfalls? What are the pitfalls in terms that I need to understand? Because it might be and I guess this is kind of the genesis of the answer is that although it looks cheap now, it might not actually be cheap in the long run. So let's start off with those in terms of the first thing you'd say to me if I was considering that uncertified seed, what would be our first concern?

 

Allister Well, I suppose it comes back to the question is why isn't it certified? So we sort of gave you the description of the processes and the levels of which these professional growers, you know, the inspectors, the arable teams creating the crops are all these levels. The labs and the inspections are all these things I've given you the criteria that they work to, to a fair degree. So straight away you say it's none of those things. As part of that first question, it's none of those things. So you could describe it as one. It has failed in some of those things, whatever we are about to buy or purchase or it is a speculation crop where someone has taken some genetics planted it in a paddock. I've got a combine harvester. I want to take an opportunity and move through the system. So you've either got it's failed the official system which that should be ringing in your ears or it is literally a speculation opportunity by somebody, you know. And I would start off by saying there are certain things that, you know, predict by IP through plant variety rights. But the reality is that, you know, there are options for farmers to save seed as it stands at the present time. The issue is when you grow a paddock, you grow a paddock that probably goes far beyond your demand. And so it's what happens to that excessive seed that no longer meets your demand. What do you do with it? And so there are examples now. Everyone has a right to purchase and take advantage of an opportunity. Everyone has that right. We do it in our own lives. Some people buy high end every time some people buy lower end and kick themselves later. And the reality is sometimes you do what you call your business and your life can afford. So this is not that. This is about the awareness of what this all means.

 

Glenn Yeah, I guess so. Just jump in here in terms of you probably need to work out if you are tempted in terms of this uncertified because of the price and that's your choice. I think there's in some cases that's quite legitimate. But what you probably need to understand, first of all, is this not certified A, because it's failed or B, because it's never entered the system? So once you kind of understand that and that sort of comes back to the level of an integrity if its failed you want to know what's failed on and you probably won't ever find out.

 

Allister A point, for example, that something has failed. The certification system probably still stems from an official source. And then it was a contamination, a weed problem not meeting some of criteria. The source was originally official. So I think I would start the discussion, which you asked originally about the ryegrass using that well if it has failed certification, the reality is that's probably still true to source, but it's coming with some baggage. Yes, that's probably the way I would describe it, will delve into that baggage in a second. If it's not coming from an official source. And it was put into the certification and failed that, that example aside, if it was a speculation crop, you have to ask where did the stock seed come from? Because at the very best it's come from a first generation seed lot. Not a basic not breeders a first generation but more logically, it's come from a second or third generation, which basically means there's been cross-pollination and the integrity of whatever you would you're potentially sowing to take the speculation crop is actually no longer the same crop, and open pollinated species like ryegrass is really good. That will drift over multiple generations if not managed. And so that's a big part of it is that the pointers I believe this is what it is. Therefore I'm going to tell the person I'm going to sell the seed is it's like this. And the reality is it may be quite different. And I think that's one of those criteria that the certification system does its true to origin. Once you get beyond that and once you start speculating, it may be contaminated, the paddock may have been contaminated, the drill may have been contaminated because the care wasn't there. The reality is that it is probably a bit of a dog's breakfast of what the original genetic origin was. So what could go wrong with that? Well, the reality is sometimes if depending on what you're using it for, not too much at the heart and soul of what the grasses do for you and what you may decide on using it for. However, if you live in a landscape where endophyte is important it is very, very important to understand that once you go out past first generation seed and you sow second generation seed, the likelihood of having an endophyte at any level within your pasture is very low. The second thing is, remember, I've discussed contamination and I've discussed crossing and also potentially paddock hygiene, mixing the drugs and different points. You may end up with multiple endophytes within your landscape because the hygiene is not high. Now the big assumption is all those endophytes are safe for all stock classes and that is not correct today. So, for example, if you're growing Nui you have speculated on another crop and you've got some Nui in your other grass Nui has the wild type standard endophyte that is quite toxic to animals. Under hot, dry summer conditions lowered ergovaline at quite high levels after 1 or 2 years within a paddock that endophyte will start to dominate the landscape. And so what you've sown in the belief it was just a cheap opportunity now has changed. And if you put that behind a defence, do you have genuine problems moving forward?

 

Glenn Absolutely. And so I think that's a really important point, knowing that if this is tempting to you, you probably, after you've sown it, do limit the ability to use that in the ways that you could use when you were sure of what was there.

 

Allister Yeah correct, or more importantly, you're believing it's just grass. You haven't valued these other things and you've just put it into your landscape but you forgot you're a deer farmer. And one of the fundamentals is you wouldn't actively go and buy standard endophyte and put on a deer farm.

 

Glenn No.

 

Allister But you've trusted someone to say this is what it is. But there's no documentation, no measurements to say what it is. I actually have an example in front of me, which is a trade of grass that a retailer and his network were moderately frustrated with this grass being traded in his environment. This grass was actually given a name, but it's not a certified grass. It's just been traded with a brand of name. And he gave us some seed to sample and it's, you know, starts off and we'll discuss it later when you discuss what else comes with your seed. But what I can identify is this line had two endophytes in it, not one. Wow. And when I'm saying two endophytes I'm not talking to quite different endophytes. And so that's you know, you could have a safe endophyte and a very toxic endophyte coming through that. So that's a quite a big deal because again, you don't know what this is going to role in life. It's going to go when it goes on all the different places it could be.

 

Glenn So endophytes one. What other parts of uncertified seed or other things that come with uncertified seed could present a problem?

 

Allister Well, again, the second one is weed burdens.

 

Glenn Yeah.

 

Allister And the reality is no landscape is perfect. But we've spent careers in this job and amount of times we're being blamed on thistles, docks coming into people's properties and all these things when again the P&G, and its certificated and formal certified seed has criteria to meet those levels and it's very, very minute.

 

Glenn The bar's high.

 

Allister Bar is very, very high. And so it's 99.9 most of the time. And so you do get an odd seed and millions, for example, I'm sitting here looking at the very same sample that we're discussing with these two endophytes, of which, by the way, not all the seed had endophyte in it. So if that went to the Waikato, for example, all the seed without endophyte would die within the first summer. So that's an unintentional consequence. But this was 96.8% pure and the amount of other seed and that was greater than 1%. And what that means is the official sample sit at around 60g and 60g if you could picture a small plot trial that you sometimes see in marketing material from different seed companies and that. A small plot trial, when we put full replicates 1.5m wide by five metres long, repeated four times. So what's that? Just say 50m². We are talking about a seed sample that has 11 false brome seedlings in it. We've got a bromus hordium, we've got geranium, dove's foot. We've got rumex, which is dock. Now we've got vulpia, we got 44 vulpia seedlings, which is hair grass in that 50m² of our plots. So just to try to get with a 60 gram sample with all these weeds in can multiply out in just 50m², which is, you know, not much more than half a house or half a small house, you have literally, let's say 44 vulpia species.

 

Glenn In that example, they would certainly at establishment be very noticeable and of concern. I would have thought.

 

Allister Or the very first spring when they start to go to seed.

 

Glenn Ah yes.

 

Allister Yes. So sometimes the layman may not see these things at the start, but it's when they go to see the following spring and multiply in your landscape that's the problem. So yeah, this is the thing is that the levels that you may see in the contamination, we've just received a chicory sample from the Manawatu and I think that it's something like 4% weet species, including brown top, including sow thistles, also including a whole lot of things that in the medium term in chicory can be quite difficult to get out of and actually create a backward step in your pasture rotation.

 

Glenn Yes. So imagine if you'd come out of a brown top pasture or a pasture that brown top was getting into decided that you were going to spray that out, go through a chicory crop to clean up and then go back in. If you were actually sowing more brown top with your chicory. And I guess that is the, you know, back to Jason's point, what's the pitfall? In terms of weeds, you could be introducing something that you don't even have on your farm in with the seed because it hasn't been through that certification process.

 

Allister Absolutely and anything you know like I say anything up to a percent is huge really huge and so to have 4% is massive. So from a weed perspective, so we've discussed the endophyte, we've discussed the integrity of the genetics. You know, are you buying, do you know what you're buying and are you buying what you've been told it is as we've discussed, that if it's perennial ryegrass endophyte is quite a big deal and for a couple of stock systems, it's really important. And also for many regions of New Zealand, the bug protection that endophyte that New Zealand gets. We've done two podcasts relating to that in New Zealand. So that's a big deal. And then the weeds are a really big deal and quite regularly it's weed burdens that have reduced certification potential or speculators that are growing crops. You know, the weed burdens are pretty big. Well, it's got to be remembered that our dressing plants are very, very busy in New Zealand, particularly in the professional seed industry. They are often chock a block full of high grade seed to be dressed. So it's quite hard for just someone to get something dressed to a high standard. So again, when you speculate on, seed production and you are speculating that you want to trade some seed, not always are you able to get it dressed to the higher standards. So that's where this baggage starts to emerge.

 

Glenn So in that case, you know, if we are looking for we had in some cases we're just looking for something to come up. And I can think of a couple of situations where that might be the case. Then the non-certified seed probably does have a role in those situations.

 

Allister But in the short term systems where you're doing multiple spray practices, you know, particularly knocking down and terminating, you know, I will not take it away from the fact that you have a choice. I feel the shorter the system. Maybe there's an element more justification for concept, but when you're talking about perennial pastures or really valuable crops that are the building blocks of your productivity and the building blocks of, you know, your future hygiene of your property, your individual property, your own business, not knowing what's going on is always, the risk, I would see as the bigger deal. Words are cheap. It's easy to say things and make people feel good about their decision and that they're making a wise, you know, a thoughtful decision under the moment they're making that decision. And yes, you will grow, feed. You will grow feed. The question isn't whether you will grow feed. It will be will you grow feed for how long you want to grow feed. Will it be safe feed and what will it look like in two, three, four years time? You're investing on things that may be in the ground for 5 to 10 years.

 

Glenn Yep. And I think this is the bit that I would always come back to is the difference in cost, for example, or the saving that you make at that point. You've got to be really sure that system doesn't incur more cost in terms of more chemical, a shorter life. And those costs inherently are much larger then maybe the cost that you think you are saving at the start.

 

Allister Absolutely. So what you've described by that is the hidden costs. So, for example, you know, if you do a good rotation and you have a nice clean seedbed, the actual post establishment chemical use you, which is quite an expensive process with many different pasture sprays or crop sprays, will be very heavily influenced by your rotation. And it's big savings if you put an effort into doing a nice rotation to keep things clean. This big savings by maybe not having to spray. And so suddenly if you have guaranteed you have to spray by what you sown the reality is that's an incurred cost that is guaranteed now as opposed to you've already done a lot of work. You've cleaned up a landscape. The chances are that I can get this lovely legume establishment because I do not have to put a heavy chemical across the top to chase anything. And then if I value my legumes, which are quite expensive parts of those mixes, you know what sort of chemical I'm putting over to capture some of these other weeds that might turn up. And, you know, how many times might I have to do that? So the key to that one is that there are potentially hidden costs in cheap seed, for example, having to direct roll back into a failed one.

 

Glenn Absolutely.

 

Allister Is like, okay so you believe that your grass dies every year because you're in a tough environment. Is it really dying every year because you're in a tough environment or is it because you've got a seed line that doesn't have an endophyte that is functional in your environment and you are guaranteed you've incurred the cost to stitch into. Whereas by investing in something that you know the correct endophyte for your landscape, you might get that one more year's worth of production before you have to do that. And that year is really valuable.

 

Glenn It is.

 

Allister My problem with the cost base discussion. At no point have you used the word value.

 

Glenn Yes, that's a really good point, Allister.

 

Allister I really think that we discuss cheap seed. We discuss the uncertified trading. We take opportunities because they seem good, there's the irony. They seem good value for money. But you forget that you are about to earn an income off it. And it's quite valuable that it actually meets your expectations to quite a high level. So you haven't quite valued your future income stream as much as your front up cost moment.

 

Glenn Yeah, and I think that's probably the really critical point here because it's actually the value that's being driven out of this is actually the big thing here. I mean, we've got ryegrass or our forage base is what drives most of our system. And it looks like, you know, it doesn't seem logical to put into those systems something that you have a lot of unknowns about that could, in fact let you down. And so that is really the answer.

 

Allister Trust me when I say we have our own issues because life is not perfect.

 

Glenn I agree.

 

Allister And so we deal with that every day. But the level of expectation sits with us far more because we go through the official process. What happens is words are cheap. This is just like something else. You can trust me. And what we tend to find in the industry is people don't tend to hold the trading of that seed to account. You sold me this. Something hasn't worked out. Now, it cost me money or missed production. If that was us people come back to us when it's in this trading situation. It's actually a cost that you will then incur and then you have to go again. You don't tend to go back and try to recoup that cost off these people.

 

Glenn I guess because you know that it was uncertified. 

 

Allister And you played a part in making that decision.

 

Glenn Yes. So in summary, because I think again, great question from Jason. We've unpacked that in terms of what are the really key things that certified seed gives you that uncertified doesn't it's not just a tag on the bag. There is a lot of effort that goes on behind that to ensure that some of those things and they're big things like weeds coming onto your property, we didn't have them. Extra costs because you're going to have to spray, maybe not just one spray, but sprays into the future because you did bring that brown top or there was a sow thistle there that wasn't cleaned up in 1 or 2 or even three sprays. Now you've got an ongoing problem. I think that's the key thing. And you look back and say, you know, for what appeared relatively cheap at the time has actually been a really expensive exercise because of all the things I've had to do further down the track. So I think that's kind of the summary of that.

 

Allister Yeah. And this probably would be a good place for me to summarise. The way I look at this is that it is a very formal system that exists at the moment. From a certified seed perspective, I would say from a consumer it is really that you're getting what you pay for basically, and you have a confidence that it is what it is and a system to go back and check on that. What could go wrong would definitely start with using perennial ryegrass as the biggest ticket item would be the fact that endophyte identification and endophyte volume within the plant very unlikely to have a high level of endophyte. So any landscape with the wrong bugs is detrimental to its lifespan. If it's the wrong endophyte, it could be the wrong endophyte for your stock class, which is an even more unfortunate situation. Then you're looking at the weed species as we've discussed. Now, the key to that is the reality is that it would be very unlucky if you got some really, really nasty things like, ragwort, knotting thistle, things like this. But your point is you still don't know. And this is the real key to this whole discussion is that you do not know. And the levels that are likely to be in the are likely to be tenfold greater than in a certified seedling. Then I think that's the real finish of the system. This discussion of the pitfalls is that in the short term this material, whatever you might purchase, may meet your expectations. But once you go through a summer or once you go through a reproductive phase, all those other things might come out and get you because then they multiply. And I'd use an example of a traded kale, for example. Uncertified kale I'd say would be a great example. The likelihood for a uncertified kale to be uncertified is that, it's got wild turnips in it. So you are literally importing wild turnips in your kale, which will fully reseed. And the likelihood is that you will never be able to grow brassica in that paddock again at a later date. So training brassica at the style is a really fraught with danger because wild turnips and flowering brassica is an endemic issue we face already. We find it hard enough in the industry to keep these things at a very, very low level. But when you have so many fewer controls, the reality is you can end up with some real minefields in that situation. So I would use that as a parting example. And I'd say once again, importance of this podcast is that you have the right to do whatever you like. What we encourage you to think about is to recognise that knowledge is power. And if you do not have the knowledge about what you're putting in a drill and putting on to your farm that may be on your farm for a number of years, probably what I would personally encourage you to do is to value knowing what you're doing and maybe sometimes you require evidence to understand what you are doing on your property.

 

Glenn Oh, good chat, I like that. I see I've got about 170 emails in my inbox, so I better go and clear those.

 

Allister That sucks Glenn, I only have one.

 

Glenn Excellent. Oh, good to see you.

 

Allister Talk soon.